Mystical Angels - What is the connection between religious belief and mental illness? Please see details before reporting this?

What is the connection between religious belief and mental illness? Please see details before reporting this?

This question is asked in all sincerity and is not meant to "stir the pot" or cause upset. Please read the details before answering. Thank you. Those of you who know me know that I have been an atheist nearly all my life. In the last few years I've become more "spiritual" and have developed a belief in souls, angels, miracles, an afterlife ... These beliefs are directly linked to incidents that I feel go so far beyond coincidence that it must have been divine intervention. In my own instance, it is the belief that I met an angel, and that her prayers healed my toddler son of his night terrors. I really *did* speak with this woman -- there is a witness. But was her single prayer and the cessation of my son's torment an act of miraculous healing? Or a coincidence? If it helps, this woman introduced herself as a Wiccan High Priestess. Guideposts magazine is filled with such stories, and there are countless books, movies and "documentaries" on the subject, all of which I find fascinating. Does it stand to reason that each of these people (myself included) are deluded in some way? Or did these events really happen? I have only recently been diagnosed bipolar, and my psychiatrist remarked that "many bipolars tend to get religious in their middle years." He made this statement without having any idea of my spiritual beliefs -- we had not discussed this. So, what I'm wondering is -- since many bipolars and others with mental illness tend to "get religion" in their middle years -- Why is this? What is the connection between mental illness and religious belief or experience? Please, don't be insulting in your answers. There are many millions or possibly billions of us who have had "experiences" and truly believe their validity with all our hearts. We can't all be delusional or insane. I'm just trying to understand why this happens. I suppose I should have asked this question while in my psychiatrist's office, but after receiving my diagnosis I was too stunned to speak. Wrath ... I deny nothing. The question was: "What is the link between religious belief and mental illness?" There's is definitely a link in my instance. So what is it? I asked that you be respectful because sarcasm and insult are not helpful. ((((Fallen Angel)))) ((((Ambivalent Laughter)))) ((((ZERO)))) I think I know who you are. :) I don't give thumbs down. ((((Confirmed atheist)))) (((((Glow Wings))))) ((((Kaseypink)))) ((((Goinmad)))) ((((JC))))

Public Comments

Sorry, Red Queen... I'm a Christian, so I'm unable to read. You're REPORTED!!! (Just Jesting! L. S. ) (((Red Queen!)))
Wish you the best. I understand there are very effective treatments nowadays. Good luck.
I've always been Christian but I've only recently been diagnosed with a mental illness. I truly believe in God and I do not have hallucinations.
Magical Thinking is a symptom of psychological disorders. QED.
"We can't all be delusional or insane." Why not? You have been diagnosed with a mental illness and now you are saying that you aren't all insane???? *no offence intended*
Well, I know a man with a mentally ill wife and sons. He said faith is helped him through hell. And forgot to say: Wish you to best. There is good medications for bipolar disorder.
I found love and got religious in a certain way// Then I got attacked by entities it looked like and I had pitbullfaith.. Now I am using the violet flame to stop this weird mental stuff and antipsychotics too but melatonin is what really works.. and I slowly come to the conclusion that no loving entity that coulda stopped my month of hell and did not can exist.. So my views change// I try to get out of this world on my own and maybe outside is something good< God or heaven/like, but not in this world.. OOO Really think this religion thing I had was entities influence even though the pitbullfaith may have been what kept me going at the same time,, Love
To answer your question, I don't think so.....there have been a couple of miraculous things happen in my life, and I have never been diagnosed with any psychological problem. We are not delusional or insane, we are blessed.
There are many reasons why people take on religion. Comfort, validity of themselves, to find love, to explain the unknown.. And yes, these things are usually the things that people with mental illnesses are lacking (love, comfort, understanding their existence etc). Once religion fixes that for them, they are desperate to hang onto it. Every, tiny little thing that happens they use to validate their religion and their beliefs.. it helps them convince themselves that they are right, and that they are getting love and comfort etcetc. I'm spiritual too, but I understand why I am.
I think the correct term is "Magical thinking". If you think about it, the less clear the world is to a person, in terms of cause and effect, the more likely they are to seek an understanding of things in magical thinking. This would be true whether their inability to see and understand clearly came from ignorance (primitive people are always religious), mental illness (When you have problems with perception, processing or mood swings things seem less predictable and stable), or just from the confusing mixed signals of real life. This is also accentuated by fear and other emotions that tend to skew our thinking. Approaching mid-life can cause one to think about and therefore fear death and also seek to assign blame to the failures of their lives. So I think it's just our brains struggling to find reasons and meanings for our lives and the things that happen around us. EDIT - You mention being bipolar, so you know how different the same thing can seem to you when you're in one mood vs the other. Your brain of course would struggle to make sense of this and magical thinking is an easy, all encompasing and effective answer. It's OK. What difference does it make if you believe in magical beings? Leave some wine out for them tonight;-)
You are just "under attack" and that is the greatest news you can ever hear. Means God is with you and is leading you His will for your life. But don't ever think the enemy is going to just take it lightly. He will put up the biggest fight of your life and you are just starting. Faith is what you need to work out in your life right now. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Listen to as many Christian radio and t.v. stations as possible. Read the book of proverbs but the most important passage God wants you to memorize if possible is 2 Corinthians 10:3-6 Believe in miracles, believe that you will cured from your bipolar condition. Do not forget you were not given a spirit of sickness but God gave us a spirit of love, power and a "sound mind". All else is the enemy attack to keep you back and doubt. Fight it with the word of God, because "by His stripes, we are healed". Focus on God's words only, ask Him to guide you and give you wisdom. He will use angels if He has to in order to get your attention and put you on His path. Trust Him with all heart and you will see His glory manifested in your life.
there is none people look for God because he left enough evidence for people to believe he performed a miracle that could not have happened other wise it has not bearing with mental illness
I don't really know if there is one. I'm going off of personal experience here, but most to all the people I know with some kind of mental disorder happen to be Atheists. But I really don't know. You've brought up a fascinating question and I'm going to have to talk to my psych professors about this. lol Don't be surprised if you randomly get an email from me within the next few months about this. ;)
While I understand the psychiatrists statement, I wonder if that's not true of people in general? I know many people who were staunch atheists in their late teens and early twenties, who now "got religion", myself included. And none of us are bipolar.
I think it's a crock. People are mentally ill and they just are, and not because of religion. A lot of mentally ill people are religious, yes, being religious allows for a lot of extremism. However, it's always going to depend on the doctor diagnosing you. If it was someone else, you could have been diagnosed with something else. Everyone could be diagnosed with a mental illness these days; people are obsessed with it.
Ok, I am coming from a Christians perspective, just warning you !! Though I know that mental illness is a real sickness and it is a part of some people lives, I have a real problem with the * take a pill it will get better* part of it all.. Yes, I understand that SOME need these medications, but there are WAY to many , that with a life style change, not necessarily *religion*, that would do MORE good than that little white pill..... Now, having said all that, I say this : I too have had *things* happen in my life, seen, touched, heard, etc... and I know they are NOT of the normal earth bound things... I may see what happened to me in a different light than you do, but they are just as real... I think what your *doctor* said is bull about people turning to *religion* when mentally ill !! I am NOT sure I can find the words with out sounding condescending though, and that is the LAST thing I want to do or sound like.... *sigh*...... I can get deeper with this, but NOT on here...... go in peace.... God bless
I was very "religious" when I was suffering too babe. I thought I was possessed by demons and everything It was a chemical imbalance as well as bipolar disorder The diagnosis took away so many of my fears. I thought I was Atheist for a while but my true spiritual path called & I listened. Some say Im delusional but I am happy for the first time ever *edit* I must add that I grew up in a household where you were forced to believe a certain way..losing the fear was great.
I'm only going to comment on your psychiatrist claim about bipolars tending to get religious in their middle years. Her claim is similar to the claim of "Most heroin addicts started with marijuana, therefore, marijuana use causes people to seek heroin." Most people tend to get religious or seek out religion and spirituality as they age. This is hardly unique to bipolars.
The response from unbelievers will be "this is proof that only mentally ill people believe in Christ." My response as a Christian is that when an unbeliever is diagnosed with something serious or life threatening, they start to look at what they believe. Is there a creator that loves me and has the power to heal me? They become aware of the place in their heart that only God can fill and start to yield to the calling of the Holy Spirit. I will pray for you and encourage you to seek a close relationship with your creator, God.
Many people, not only those who've been assigned a 'mental illness' label, tend to become reflective about spirituality in their middle years (and I'd definitely say that this is about spirituality rather than religion). Sometimes that means abandoning the organised religion they've been part of for something less prescriptive, less fixed, often with a far less concrete concept of the divine; sometimes it means moving from a purely rationalist agnosticism/atheism to accepting some sense of the wonder of life that isn't so concrete and rational. Everyone tries to make sense of their experience, and for some people it's about being as reductive and rationalist as possible, while others talk about angels or spirits or whatever. I suspect, personally, that neither version is "The Truth" but just different ways of describing stuff we don't quite know how to understand.
Have u ever been asleep and can't move and u feel and evil presence that makes u scared. though doctors say sometimes the body becomes slightly paralyzed while ur asleep, i really beleive its evil spirits tryin to influence our minds. i really beleive that some of the persons deemed insane were attacked in some way, may be possessed and can be healed with prayer and exorcism. but then some doctors don't beleive evil spirits can ruin one's mind and make u behave weird but i'm a little proof and other people i know. i had a terrible ordeal at 13 where i felt i literally had to fight. my friends told me i was behaving different the next day and my mother began offering to take me to the psychologist until she had her own experiences and ended up going there herself. anyway we still live our lives and are back to normal. she retired from nursing and i'm in a good profession workign on my masters. i don't ever think i'll be normal though. also when she started freaking out that she was being attacked and was put on medication, when she got baptised and joined the church she sorta got back to her old self
Psychiatrists can't explain the supernatural, so they just call it hyper religiosity or some such. bah! Thanks for asking this question. It's a great one.
There is no good research evidence of a correlation between bipolar disorder and "getting religion" in the middle years. A bipolar disorder is an affective disorder (e.g., significant mood swings) and is not usually associated with a thought disorder or delusions unless one happens to be experiencing a manic state or severe depression (even then not necessarily). People with schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder, and some of you more severe personality disorders (e.g., schizoid, borderline, schizotypal) may have a thought disorder, delusions, and auditory hallucinations. Sometimes (but not all the time), their idiosyncratic beliefs have strong religious associations. The first "psychotic break" typically occurs in the late teens to early twenties. Interestingly, there is a body of research which suggests a strong association between mental health and a sense of spirituality or religion. The real DSM IV "acid-test" is about the consequences. Does it inhibit or compromise social/vocational/interpersonal functioning in some meaningful way? If not, it wouldn't be considered pathological. In other words, there is nothing inherently pathological about the extraordinary belief that you met an angel. The debate as to whether you and millions of theistic "others" are deluding yourselves or not, will probably never be completely settled. It would be much better to focus on your level of functioning and not be too caught up in labels like "bipolar" which is often over diagnosed and lets not go overboard with the idea of "magical thinking". A belief in a vist from an angel is not sufficient to qualify. (this is comming from an atheistic-leaning agnostic). Plus, we all have some degree of magical thinking. Good luck!
(((((Red))))) "So, what I'm wondering is -- since many bipolars and others with mental illness tend to "get religion" in their middle years -- Why is this? What is the connection between mental illness and religious belief or experience?" The connection between the two, from my understanding, is simply looking for answers, something to give a sense of stability and hope. When things don't make sense, people look for ways to make them make sense, or at the very least give them hope, even if they don't completely understand the solution (religion, psychotherapy, prescription drugs, etc.) that they've found. They just want something to work, and people are known for their sunny disposition towards the not-so-provable when they believe they're getting the results that they desired. Hence, some people who keep a lucky penny, horseshoe, 4-leaf clover, or go through a specific ritual before doing something, even if that ritual is completely unrelated to the task they wish to perform (think athletes, like Micheal Jordan with his NC shorts under his Bulls shorts). That's the only connection that I can see. You're looking for answers and help that you believe is beyond your own ability to provide, and I understand that you need to believe there's help. There is, and you're getting it. Keep seeing your psychiatrist, and don't be afraid to get a second opinion every now and then. I wish you the best, take care.
Hi! There are alot of joke comments about religious people hearing voices and being mentally ill,. however, these are joke comments, and should be taken with a pinch of salt!! Some people hearing voices seeing angels etc are mentally ill others are very sincere rational beings. I know several people who believe in goddesses, angels and spiritual based powers and they are fine. Mental illness can be found in anyone from your nihilist atheist to your devout christian. There is no scientific corelation between religion and mental illness ( not talking about personal cults though,. they do attract a specific class of people) If a new found spiritual awareness is helping you get on with your life better and giving you a bit of inner peace, be happy about it.
It's an interesting question, but it depends as much on how we define mental illness as spirituality. Sorry for the long answer, but here goes: First, on bi-polars getting spiritual in their middle years. I think PEOPLE often get religious in their middle years, so I wonder if bi-polars’ getting spiritual is statistically different from the general population's doing so at these ages. I don't have a study to cite, but being in my middle years myself, I can tell you that things change. When we're younger, we have that sense of being invincible. As we get older, we begin to start thinking about our mortality and the meaning of life in ways that go beyond philosophical curiosity. Add to that something like a toddler with night terrors—concern for an innocent being and a desire to do anything to help—and we're plunged into a land of confusion. When we're confused, we feel unsafe, and that makes us seek safety. Some people find safety in money. Some in relationships (healthy or unhealthy). Some in drugs and alcohol. Some find comfort in religion. It's said that there are no atheists in foxholes. The broader meaning is that when we're scared, we turn to a religion. Many Christians take say that we finally see the truth. Outside Christianity, many people would say we'll believe in anything to get through a dark night. The bottom line is we need something to hold fast to—something that is certain. Many different religions offer that—comfort, the feeling that something greater is out there that’s benevolent. We feel unsafe when we're uncertain or confused and become like little children—when we don't know what to do, we seek the guidance/protection of a parent. As children, our parents are gods—infallible. As adults, we've come to know they are fallible, but we still sometimes need the knowledge of an infallible force who has the answers we cannot see and can take care of everything when we cannot. Anything that leaves us feeling answer-less and without direction can bring us to this point—and mental illness is just one of many. As for the def. of mental illness, the DSM says one thing, but there are people who question the rapidly growing list of things that qualify as "illness," "syndrome" or "disorder." While the list of descriptors these things may be accurate, some people—doctors—are now suggesting it's normal to feel uncomfortable feelings sometimes. I've read several books that address the question, including "Toxic Psychology," "Scripts People Live" and "Games People Play” and "Overdosed America.” I've also seen a book called "The Death of Sadness," which I haven't yet read. But if you look for it on Amazon, you'll see how many related books pop up (inc "Prozac Backlash" and "Making Us Crazy" which, I believe, challenges the DSM itself. The point is that it may not be that mental illness is related to becoming religious. Our society has decided that anything but a June Cleaver existence is somehow indicative of illness. But feeling sad, confused, angry and overwhelmed are all normal parts of the human condition. It's just that in our day, b/c of a societal misperception that we should be happy all the time, anything else is labeled "aberrant." We get no training in how to deal with these feelings, how to sit with them, talk to them. So we fear them, and our first goal is to make them go away. Turning to religion is one way to do that. For me, that didn't work. Instead, I spent years digging into psychology to understand those feelings in general, and specifically in myself. (Although I still have a general spiritual feeling of a greater force than ourselves, but I don't need it to guide me.) But my first response, when I approached "the middle years" and fell into a dark pit was to turn to religion. Religion, like the pharmaceutical or mental health industry, offers an instant, easy explanation. It implies a long-term solution, but their long-term solutions (esp Christianity) often demand lifelong commitment to the product/belief system/diagnosis. In the end, there are some things we’ll never know. There was a time, before science understood the solar system, that people believed a giant monster came and swallowed the sun every night. It was scary. We know better now, but does religion tell us similar fairly tales to explain what we don't understand? Perhaps. But that would only mean there's a connection between religious belief and confusion, fear—not mental illness. And since there will always be things we can't explain, there will always be that confusion and fear surrounding the unknown. We must deal with it somehow, or we WILL go insane.
If you deny spirituality and allow people to tell you it's mental illness, you're basically denying Jesus, because he was all spirituality, and his thoughts were on God 24/7. All human beings begin to think of religion once the rush of youth is passed, that's every one of us. Are we all mentally ill? God is the most extreme power in the universe, nothing is beyond Him, not healing, not appearances, not inspiration. Do not allow a psychiatrist to tell you that things that happen to the majority of human beings are mental illness. Red Queen, leave yourself the option of getting a second opinion. Your psychiatrist sounds odd to me.
Richard Dawkins would call it the God Delusion. It is a long, twisted and spurious path that leads people towards a renunciate mentality. We're all crazy, but I would define "mental illness" as when your thoughts are detrimental to your well being. This is not necessarily the case with religion, as I am sure it helps people in many ways. For one thing, it can assuage their fear of death. As far as we know, we humans are the only creature that knows it's going to die. What a mind job! No wonder! While I find it curious that you are willing to set foot on this tricky mental path, one that has "developed a belief in souls, angels, miracles, an afterlife," I would agree with Mr. Dawkins that it is delusional. Which is fine. I just don't want to see it dressed up and on parade, because it limits knowledge in others, it is bad advertising. Knowledge is key to help with the suffering in the world. Adopting belief systems causes such terrible results: overpopulation, ignorance, caste systems, and ultimately, holy wars/jihads and flying airplanes into populated buildings.
What is the connection? Well coming from a family full of mental illness in varying degrees, all bi-polar and personality disorders. I personally think it has to do with what the mind constructs.. people with bi-polar often experience things and then they think about them so much that they change them, and the changes they make become real. Things that happen become distorted, they are altered and embellished, more emphasis is placed upon things that other people wouldn't even think about. I believe it has to do with the intensity of feeling bi-polar people experience. People with mental illness FEEL different than other people, and they feel things differently. That isn't always a bad thing, but sometimes it can turn out to be. My Dad, my aunt, my sister, my uncle, my cousins all suffer from a high degree of mental illness. The rest of us suffer from varying degrees of the same illness, including myself. So the connection is in how emotions affect and alter the perception of things within the minds of people afflicted with bi-polar. It doesn't necessarily lead to belief in religion though it has in my sisters and uncles cases. but what it does lead to is a filtered view that, what you see is based on what you feel and what you feel is controlled by the mental illness. The connection isn't between religion and mental illness it's between mental illness and how we view the world through emotions. Therefore what someone with a mood disorder such as bi-polar feels, becomes reality in what is seen and heard and touched. In my own case I've had to learn to seperate what I feel from what I think.. and not allow my emotions to become chaotic and distort my worldview. This is how I've dealt with my own illness and it is how I have learned to help myself.
(((RedQueen))) At sixty one years old, I just love the passage in the bible that says; "we are to be as little children to enter the gates of heaven". As we reach the "golden years" and we regress back to childlike behavior, we can accept and allow ourselves to just "be" peacefully, by the Grace of God. We are who we are, whether we put names to our behavior - or not. It is what it is, and life is what we make it. :D
First of all, I just graduated a couple years ago with a bachelors degree in psychology...so the ugly history of the treatment of people with (or assumed to have) mental health issues is still fresh in my mind. From cutting out portions of the brain to electric shock treatments....doctors always thought they were doing the right thing and with the 'cutting edge' technology and treatments. Even now, with all these brand new diagnoses, pharmaceuticals, and treatments we MUST be careful before getting into that comfortable, relaxed state of certainty 'just knowing' that they are doing the patient more good than harm. That isn't always the case! Although it is better than before, human awareness of psychological phenomena is sketchy at best. Be careful of the drugs they give you...do some research and make sure you keep an open dialogue with an engaged and caring doctor. If your doctor doesn't have time for you then move on. Just going off what I know of you on the internet and that you told us you were diagnosed recently (and you are already middle age), but you don't strike me as a person suffering from bipolar disorder. If you truly have bipolar disorder I would think you would have been diagnosed at an earlier age. Have you gotten a second, third opinion? Most likely you will be told very different things from different doctors...that is the problem with/for mental health professionals...there is oftentimes no clear diagnosis and way to determine it. Now...about the spiritual side of this question. There is more to this world than what meets the eye. Also, if you are questioning your sanity than you are more sane than most, lol! You have that healthy dose of skepticism that will take you a long way in your spirituality. You don't openly accept all, yet you don't carelessly dismiss it either. Don't let any of our perceptions rock you...you know yourself better than anyone. (Including your doctor!) In my own experience spiritual healing is very possible, and it isn't a temporary solution either...it is permanent in the realest aspect of the term. Much love and light to you! (((((((RedQueen)))))))
My "spiritual" experiences, have been extraordinary synchronicities or coincidences, call them what you will, with other people, all following a certain tread, which has being going on for many years and still continues to unfold. It goes way beyond mere coincidence at this stage. Does that make me mentally ill to say this? Hardly. As it is something which happens outside of myself. I would now be an atheist were it not for these many experiences. I am happy to share them with you, if you wish, if you think it may help, and I know you are of pure heart, given everything you have ever said here.
I think when a person is faced with a mental illness that cannot be cured they must look at other options for a cure. I know that I have struggled with my mental illness all my life, and basically I got to the point that I gave up on myself. I turned to God and I found that I began to improve and enjoy life for the first time. I am not recently diagnosed and I have had the diagnosis since I was about 4. The first time I felt relief and hope is when I looked to something more superior then myself or a doctor.
ooh that is such a tricky one. my aunt and quite a few others i know of turned away fro rather than towards religious beliefs whilst others did not change at all, i do however tend towards a belief that thought and deed can boost beneficial power and in a power for love from which comes a healing force and that some people can channel these to help in healing and comforting. the link between religion and mental illness is tenuous so do not let that worry you, and if 'finding' religion is helping you through the bad patches that can't be a bad thing can it?
I saw this question last night and tried to answer you then...but I was distracted by another issue and felt I was being too trite...because I very much want you to know that I am not scoffing at you. Mental illness may be seen as a reaction to the circumstances of your life. Bipolar disorder it would seem has real physiological causes...differences in brain structure which altar your perceptions of the world and your emotional reactions to them. So your brain is indeed different from the brains of so called "normal" people. And this having been said, I see a correlation between your visions and your perceptions of a spiritual world and the disease. But I in no way mean this pejoratively.No do I mean to tell you that you're deluded. There is a large school of thought in the Philosophy of mental illness which says that the so called "insane" people simply have a much more highly developed sense of perception than the sane. So they see things in the world that the normal people miss. And this elevated level of perception is in the modern world, diagnosed as mental illness.And treated with drugs and therapy.RD Laing is possibly the best known of such theorists....but there are many in the school. Now if you are having thoughts of self harm or if your condition is leading you to risk taking behaviours then some treatments either drug or therapy or both may be appropriate...and needed. However, if your "illness" is doing naught but making you more spiritually aware and causing middle of the road friends and family to think you a bit odd....then why change your consciousness to suit the comfort levels of others? Why should your inner life meet the expectations of those around you? Satisfy them and not yourself? I have suffered from depression for a long time...cycles of it...not constant but terrible when it occurs. I am plunged into despair at times....Usually motivated by some tragic public event. I see misery and pain everywhere in the world, feeling powerless to help people, being frustrated and terrified by he failures of world leaders to prevent what appears to be imminent catastrophe. And I have come to the conclusion that when I feel like this what is happening is that I am no longer blocking a natural and logical emotional reaction to a tragedy.I am grieving. That the tragedy is occurring in far flung corners of the earth to people I have never met seems irrelevant to me now. I suffered dreadfully from depression at the outbreak of the Iraq war...I was awake for the first 4 days of bombing...I watched 24 hour news coverage. I wept and raged.I could neither eat nor drink. I did become seriously physically ill from it. My husband and my doctor wanted to drug me...and I refused to be drugged. They wanted to take the electronic media away and I refused to have it taken from me. Because what was unfolding was a massive human tragedy. And my government and my fellow citizens (I'm Australian) were taking an active role in perpetrating it. As far as I could see, I had no right to opt out of the pain that the war was causing. For the mothers of Iraq could not opt out. And I decided that if more of us here felt their terror, wept for their losses, raged at the injustice of it.....we would be less keen to continue inflicting it.As far as I am concerned, I was a lot more sane about it all than those who went about their daily tasks whilst saying "Oh isn't that war awful?" And maybe you are just a lot more open to the spiritual side of things because of your "illness". Maybe you are just seeing what the rest of us miss. And if this is the case, then being medicated into a stupor would mean you were having something stolen from you...something very special. And I would hate to think of that happening to anyone. For though I cannot achieve it...I have always thought that faith must be a beautiful thing to possess.And I have never and will never try to take it from someone who has it.
Red Queen, I just found your question. I have heard this before and I personally believe that many who are listed as bipolar and mentally unstable in other ways are generally able to see and understand things that many others of us can not. I have always respected you for your attempts to be humorous and to not push others who are nasty with you about religious matters. That is one reason that you and I have been so close for so long. I have no evidence of this or any data to support it and I am unable to look for it today but I may be able later this evening to begin doing so. Have a wonderful week. Your Friend, Eds ~~~ .