Mystical Angels - Do you still think playing "indian" is ok? What should be done about this man and others like him?

Do you still think playing "indian" is ok? What should be done about this man and others like him?

here is yet another example of what can happen when people pretend to be something they aren't. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33243288/ns/us_news-life/from/ET typical fake "shaman" with a fake sweat lodge kills 2 people and seriously injures 19 others. these people are victims of a fraud. "SEDONA, Ariz. - A sauna-like sweat lodge at an Arizona resort meant to provide spiritual cleansing became the scene of a police investigation Friday when more than 20 people became ill during a two-hour session and two later died. " "Some participants told detectives they paid up to $9,000 for the event." "The Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center, built on former ranch property in the high-desert and red-rock country of northern Arizona, bills itself as a natural environment for self-discovery and healing through a holistic approach aimed at balancing the mind, emotions, body and spirit. The property includes American Indian structures such as teepees, guest houses and outdoor labyrinths made of stones. " sedona arizona is well known for its fake indians and fraudulent medicine men and women. can you now see one reason actual native people warn others about them? that type of "accident" happens all the time. every year people are injured or die in sweat lodges run by people pretending to know what they are doing. if you want to be a shaman great. just don't appropriate indigenous beliefs and call your ceremonies native american. NONE of our real holy people charge for ceremony. its simply not done so if someone is that should be your first clue something is off. i couldn't care less what your beliefs are. but when they start to infringe on mine i draw the line. in 1978 congress finally granted freedom of religion to native americans and even today we are not totally free to practice the beliefs of our ancestors without the government telling us how and when. so when people who are not native do stupid things like this, it gives an excuse for the government to once again tell us we can't practice certain ceremonies. how long before we will need to purchase a license and have permisson for sweat lodges? @ mystic shiva..no offense intended. but yes i refer to the nidigenous people of north america. unlike the PC crowd we call ourselves indian but not to replace you or people from your country. most often we spell it NDN, but many non natives don't know what that means.

Public Comments

It is no less legitimate than tithing to a church
All religions have fake priests who lead the believers to their demise.
They should have stuck with a safe religion like churchianity which just steals your soul and your money.
hey, Im not playing Indian, I am Indian, can`t you sense the accent. LOL. Dont worry I know you meant native americans ok seriously i think people should really think twice and be aware and not be caught up with people, just look for the truth, truth itself will keep you safe, its a dangerous thing to be giving your trust to everything you read or just because everyone follows it, dont be a goat who is herded by a wolf But i feel sorry for those got killed and injured, I wish their soul is at peace, may they have peace. Om shanti
hahaha. a shaman is in touch with the things we cannot see. if you cant see the invisible, stop pretending. if you kill people by your ignorance, you will pay anyway.
Kanien, I think there is more to this story. Ray's posting on his Twitter account hours before the deaths said: "Still in Spiritual Warrior ... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?" This sounds suspicious to me and the authorities are checking into possible criminal activities surrounding the illnesses and deaths. My first thought would be food poisoning, but then the article doesn't state the nature of the illnesses, so it is hard to speculate. Some herbs may have been used inappropriately, or who knows what? It will be interesting to find out what happened. Most knowledgeable people would say that a two hour session in a crowded sweat lodge for people who may have been fasting does not sound safe, especially if these people have medical conditions. I know Sedona attracts all types. It would appear some are desperate in their attempt to regain good health and have the money to spend on this type of "quackery." I call it that because 40 years of abuse to ones own body can not be cured in a week long session at some high dollar retreat. I think you are right that people need to be careful who they trust with their lives, this would include college educated physicians, not just pretend shamans or medicine people or whatever you want to call them. To be fair, many people die from overexposure in Swedish saunas and hot tubs too, mostly due to their own ignorance. Anyone can erect a sweat lodge, as I have, but one must know their personal limits. Also, I don't play Indian and perform fake rituals, as I have too much respect for the indigenous cultures to do that. Still, as an aromatherapist, I use hand gathered sage and my choice for relaxing music is Native drums and flutes which I have incorporated into my private sessions. To be honest I would prefer a Swedish sauna, but can't afford that kind of luxury. The sweat lodge is a lot of work, but worth it. Sorry if what happened will impact your people. It would seem the government should have more important things to concern themselves with than a handful of Natives practicing the beliefs of their ancestors. I'll try and follow this story and thanks for posting it. Maybe it will make a difference. Blessings to you. Edit: What should happen to him? I don't know without more information, but it should be severe if he is found at fault. I know for sure he will end up tapping out his liability insurance. These types of activities need to be more closely regulated, that is the commercial ones like his. Even in Colorado massage therapists are just now being regulated, which I say is good. It protects the consumer and also helps us by legitimizing our profession. Additional detail: The latest news on this outrage. http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/fromcomments/312740.php http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/us/12lodge.html?em http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2009/10/10/2 http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/fromcomments/312740.php This guy, Ray, is in my opinion a scammer. He is a self-professed "guru" which is a slander on the word's meaning. He offers to help people in all aspects of their lives. One big claim is that he can lead people to great wealth through his agenda. Those who know will say the sweat lodge has nothing to do with money. What makes me upset is that after all this happened he jetted back to his home, deleted his previous twitter comments and posted a quick comment of apology, like that helps! He is lost and thinks he's got it made, but it will come crashing down around him. He must learn from this big mistake. I don't think he meant to do harm, but who knows, still he is responsible for two humans who trusted in him. I feel so bad for the people who have suffered from this experience and may still feel the aftermath in the years ahead. Enough has been said from me.
I think that when it impacts negatively on a group, there should be questions. Hard questions. I am a Reiki master and do not charge for my Reiki shares. When I DID charge, it was a minimal amount for my own time and services (like a massage therapist), yet I see many who overcharge and imbue Reiki with mystical/magical powers. These are folks who believe that only THEY can do Reiki when in truth - everyone generally can. My sympathies and heart go out to you; people don't realize what effect this type of impersonation has on 'the originals' (so to speak).
I developed a debiliating illness without available medical solutions. So naturally I explored alternative treatments. I can't tell the number of kooky sounding, money involving treatments I've come across. Over & over I have to listen to my gut & get the heck away in spite of acquantances telling me it's saved their lives. One of the big flags along the way is when something is claimed to be Native cultures & asks for money. It's not just that it's not geninue. It's that the person is that willing to lie & manipulate - I'm not trusting them with anything. It's one thing to do a sweat lodge claiming it's that, not connected with another culture. That is to say, using a technqiue but using it under their own responsiblity. But even then I know someone who has done much better health-wise using one he built for himself...but when he offered to me for free I considered the process & decided it wasn't right for my body without enough medical supervision. It's terrible that people connect this kind of con job & the results with Native Cultures. In a moral, fair world, much more discolsure should be required. So desperate people would quickly see they are only be dupped by a non-Native, unrelated, plain & simple con man. Still people should have more consideration that when it sounds like it's taking advantage of another culture to just run because it sounds immoral. FYI, to anyone listening to someone saved by one of these alternative treatments, ask lots of questions. Often what's transpired & what they want to believe worked, aren't the same thing. Only a tiny percent are worth trying out.
Perfect example. This is all over every NDN site, everyone is talking about it. It is sad that people died. It is sad to think how much oney they paid this quack to kill them. Reading COA'a response is disturbing. Just to think this may have been the quacks goal is even worse. It may seem to some that teaching boyscouts to play NDN is harmless. But some of them make it a lifestyle. Anyone of those order of the arrow kids could grow up to be the next victim of the latest plastic shaman. Our beliefs so wonderful things for our people but misused they can be dangerous. For example many of us drink a certain tea. IT is very healing and good for our body. But there was this wannabe once about ten years ago hanging around our center. She thought she would make some for herself (all on her own), she gave herself the runs so bad she got dehydrated.
Siyo. This all gets back to the three rules I give folks for dealing with NDN spirituality. #1 If they have to TELL you they are a "medicine person, elder. Chief etc. they are NOT. #2 If they use the word "shaman" to describe who they are or what they do they are FAKE. #3 If they ask for money or "gifts" dont just walk away, RUN!!!! As for what to do with these particular ones. Prosicute to the fullest. I have been to many Sweats and there is never any priority on making it HOT. A sweat is a purification NOT a test of endurance. I know this makes things harder on those who are legit but maybee it will make some of these "pay to pray" fakes go away. Wado for listening, Jisdu
This goes back to what I've long stood against..the cultural and spiritual identity theft of any people The impostor plastic shaman fake NDNs simultaneously declare great love and loyalty to the identity they claim while they employ utter disresepect to the laws, ethics, values and the actual peoples whose identity they hijack. Logic and cause and effect of course lead to calamity for those who are fraudulently taken in and for the people whose culture, religion and spirituality has been hijacked. Any individual or group that speaks out *against* this bigoted display of entitlement to hijack and remove the right of a people to maintain their own unadulterated history and laws, is then chastised as the bigot and condemned for their hatred at not being "tolerant". Sometimes the mention of love of all people or brotherhood is even brought up to deflect the misrepresentation of identity or history or belief. There is a sense of entitlement in the perpetrator of such fraud to the ones who approprate another's culture, and I do not believe they do not do it as much out of admiration, because often what they admire is a sham or only an outward appearance, they do so to destroy the others culture and replace it with the "new" version that "feels good" to them and makes them feel superior to the former. This is not exclusive to the indigenous people of North America..this happens to many peoples across the world. It does appear to be a European/western sensibility perhaps derived from the legacy of Empire/colonialism that reinforces these entitlement behaviors, but whatever the impetus, it is harmful, no doubt. Genocides aren't only accomplished through outright physical assault or warfare, but are aided through cultural appropriation and assimilation, too. By these people taking on the identity or authority of an "elder" or leader to teach or conduct ceremonies of others, they seek to de-power the authentic voices and attempts to de-legitimize the indigenous people's rights of self-representation and self-identity. Every aspect of what I've described could also be applied to what Jews experience ..but I won't sidetrack further on that issue. This was an appalling incident that shows how dangerous that such spiritual and cultural identity theft can be. It is also now big business and I only hope that more deaths won't result. dowhanawi said something that I think is so important I'm going to repeat it for emphasis : "It may seem to some that teaching boyscouts to play NDN is harmless. But some of them make it a lifestyle. Anyone of those order of the arrow kids could grow up to be the next victim of the latest plastic shaman. " In fact, some of them could grow up to BE one of those plastic shaman. They feel such a sense of entitlement to do whatever they want with Native American symbolism already, it's the next step. Shalom